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Jim
Joined: 08 25 04
Posts: 1060
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 Post subject: Re: the meditation card Posted: 12/30/05, 12:40 pm |
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In my first post in this thread I quoted what a couple of Integral Naked Members were saying: | Quote: | How come we never see any debate in the clips? Or at least disagreement?
It's not just that at an integral level debate stops because we can recognize all truths, as this forum is a good example. Is there another reason?
The dangers of surrounding oneself with people who hold the same opinions and values are well known. |
| Quote: | | I've never been happy with all the back-patting and hobnobbing that constitutes most of the interviews. Never mind debate, how about some true dialogue? Engage a critic once in awhile or someone who doesn't think in terms of AQAL and memes. |
Then I said: By way of example we might ask how Wilber might discuss reincarnation with a "meditatively experienced" individual "who doesn’t think in terms of AQAL and memes” and who unlike Wilber, doesn't think reincarnation is a reality.
But you are posing questions in terms of Wilber's "AQAL and memes" system: | Quote: | | Well if they both acknowledge and believe in the existence of levels or gradients of consciousness, why shouldn't they include that within the discussion? According to Wilber, for example, levels are cut out sometime between orange and green vmemes and then reintroduced (with a vengeance!) with the dawn of 2nd tier, yellow. So if two people are at yellow, they would agree to the existence of levels, thus would include them within such a discussion. But if one didn't believe in levels--at least as relative gradients of "apparent" consciousness ala the color spectrum--they would be declaring themselves pre-yellow, at least within that specific context, and along the relevant cognitive-oriented lines. At least according to Wilber! |
That's fine for two people who are into Wilber's "AQAL and memes" system.
You talk about "pre-yellow." Scientologists talk about "pre-OT." OT is the acronym for the "Operational Thetan" level. Talking about "pre-OT" and "OT" is great for Scientologists, and talking about "pre-yellow" and "The dawn of 2nd tier" is great for Wilberians.
It should be possible to discuss all kinds of things without any referencen whatsoever to Ken Wilber's "Integral Operating System" and "Integral Theory of Everything."
Robin Kornman, a Buddhist who I've met several times who was very close with Trungpa, interviewed Wilber and asked him about a Buddhist "who doesn't use other systems of self-development or self-transformation." Kornman asked Wilber if such a Buddhist would need Wilber's system, and Wilber said, "You don't. Unless you happen to find it interesting, or fun, or engaging. Then you'll do it just to do it. The Buddhist teachings don't specifically cover Mexican cooking either, but you still might like to take that up."
That's a good, honest, and factually true answer: You don't need Wilber's system unless you happen to find it as least as interesting, or fun, or engaging as Mexican cooking.
So to go back to another question I posed in my first post: Let's say that Integral Institute or Integral University does a research project and they find two people, one a Wilberian (a Wilber student) and one who is not a Wilberian (someone who doesn't find Wilber's IOS at least as interesting, or fun, or engaging as Mexican cooking, and who doesn't think in terms of "AQAL and memes"), and they test them to determine where they are at "veritically" and "horizontally."
And the test results show that these people are operating at the same veritical and horizontal levels. Horizontally, they test the same in all lines, waves, and streams.
But they are two physically different human beings, and one of them is into Wilber's system and the other isn't.
My question is very simple: Is it possible that they could disagree on things such as reincarnation, biological evolution, involution, subtle energies, paranormal phenomena, and questions about consciousness?
That's a rhetorical question, of course. I think that anyone who would answer in the negative has turned Wilber's "IOS" into a Matrix for their mind, and may be beyond hope. |
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| Subject |
 the meditation card ~ Jim
12/20/05, 8:38 am |
| Re: the meditation card ~ Heru
12/21/05, 3:47 am |
| Re: the meditation card ~ Jim
12/27/05, 6:14 pm |
| Re: the meditation card ~ Heru
12/29/05, 4:03 am |
| Re: the meditation card ~ Jim
12/29/05, 12:40 pm |
| Re: the meditation card ~ Heru
12/30/05, 2:48 am |
| Re: the meditation card ~ Jim
12/30/05, 12:40 pm |
| Isn't there a middle ground? ~ Heru
12/30/05, 6:08 pm |
| Re: Isn't there a middle ground? ~ Jim
12/30/05, 9:58 pm |
| Re: Isn't there a middle ground? ~ Heru
12/31/05, 1:24 am |
| Re: Isn't there a middle ground? ~ Jim
12/31/05, 8:52 am |
| Re: Isn't there a middle ground? ~ Heru
12/31/05, 12:48 pm |
| Where does Wilber do the middle ground ? ~ Gadfly
12/31/05, 1:33 pm |
| Addendum ~ Heru
12/29/05, 4:17 am |
| Re: the meditation card ~ templeman
12/20/05, 10:06 pm |
| Who transmigrates? ~ Coyote
12/20/05, 8:56 pm |
| Re: Who transmigrates? ~ bob
12/20/05, 9:14 pm |
| Then again ~ Coyote
12/21/05, 7:03 pm |
| Re: the meditation card ~ MarkDavid
12/20/05, 3:59 pm |
| Re: the meditation card ~ Jim
12/21/05, 9:18 am |
| Re: the meditation card ~ MarkDavid
12/23/05, 3:22 am |
| Agree with Gad, awesome post ~ Coyote
12/21/05, 8:56 pm |
| Yikes ! Pretty good stuff Jim. ~ Gadfly
12/21/05, 10:28 am |
| How do you like his weightlifting analogy ? ~ Gadfly
12/20/05, 4:46 pm |
| Hi Jim - good to hear from you ! ;-) ~ Gadfly
12/20/05, 10:59 am |
| ethical behaviour ~ Susan
12/20/05, 11:31 am |
| The money-makers are about the same ilk as religios ~ Coyote
12/21/05, 10:01 pm |
| what is your own opinion about reincarnation jim? ~ neo
12/20/05, 9:07 am |
| stream of vulgarity ~ Coyote
12/20/05, 9:02 pm |
| Re: what is your own opinion about reincarnation jim? ~ Jim
12/20/05, 5:06 pm |
| Only if I come back as myself ! ~ Gadfly
12/20/05, 11:02 am |
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