Da was truly a loser...

[~E~]

I got tired of looking at that thread called "Da was truly great" and decided to start a new thread about the truth of the man...

Why was Da a loser?

Well, for one thing, because he gambled for the world...and lost.

He also, I fear, gambled for his own soul and lost as well.

Beginning with an insight -- "radical understanding" -- which by itself and apart from the demand for "satsang" is a fragment of liberating wisdom, he sought to build an institution which (he believed) would establish on earth the most true, authentic, and effective path to enlightenment.

Sadly (quite sadly), all he accomplished was to create yet another cult religion, a power game of wealth and ego politics, which used the principle of self-sacrifice as a fulcrum for extracting wealth from the world. (Which wealth, we are told by a number of sources, he secreted in off-shore bank accounts.)

The whole Adidam thing was and is a sham. From the point of view of "the great tradition" it is more than a sham -- it is a travesty and a great betrayal. As an old Indian monk said as far back as the early 1970s, Franklin Jones (aka Da) was a spiritual criminal.

How do we ourselves know that? Because we tested him and he did not pass the test.

Yes, I know from the Daster's point of view, those who tested Da and found him wanting are in fact the ones who "failed the test". ...Enjoy that deluded thought, Dasters, while you lay your flower on your master's empty mausoleum. Then go on and find out what happens to you when you pass through the door of your own death.

Frank found out for himself, of course, when he died. He passed into some rather hellish bardos, where he was roasted and flayed, until he emerged looking unrecognizable. I saw him, sitting up in bed in a recovery room, looking down at the peeled charred flesh of his hands and arms. The pain was still very intense. Outside the room there were gardens and sunlight -- he had been transferred to a subtle world where he could heal and prepare for his next spiritual lesson. An angel-nurse brought him a cooling drink.

There was something startling about his face -- it revealed his true inner visage for the first time, something he never revealed while incarnate, no matter how many shape-shifting changes he made.

It was a demonic face, willful and narcissistic, and my first impression was that although he had suffered incredibly in the timeless space that he entered after his death, he had yet to begin his great lesson in humility.

Adi Da was a kind of genius, who could mimic and plagiarize the greatest spiritual teachings of history. But he never in fact attained "enlightenment" or any kind of higher stage of consciousness. He was just a very smart phoney, driven by an inner core of greed, no different than any other loser who is possessed by the uninspected power complexes of this world...

Elias

[RandomStu]

Why was Da a loser?

In one sense, Da was like a man who takes a really really good shower, and gets completely clean. Then he falls into this delusion: "I'm so clean that I never need to shower again!" And for the rest of his life, he lets the dirt accummulate.

In another sense, Da is neither a winner nor a loser. In the Mahabharata, Yudishtira is famously asked, "Which are more numerous, the living or the dead?" And his winning response was, "The living... because the dead do not exist."

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

[scularue]

Frank found out for himself, of course, when he died. He passed into some rather hellish bardos, where he was roasted and flayed, until he emerged looking unrecognizable. I saw him, sitting up in bed in a recovery room, looking down at the peeled charred flesh of his hands and arms. The pain was still very intense. Outside the room there were gardens and sunlight -- he had been transferred to a subtle world where he could heal and prepare for his next spiritual lesson. An angel-nurse brought him a cooling drink.

There was something startling about his face -- it revealed his true inner visage for the first time, something he never revealed while incarnate, no matter how many shape-shifting changes he made.

It was a demonic face, willful and narcissistic, and my first impression was that although he had suffered incredibly in the timeless space that he entered after his death, he had yet to begin his great lesson in humility.

... ah, delusional? Christian imagery even. Do you really believe this mind stuff of yours?
Or is it just wishful thinking. Well, I can relate to that.

[Elias]

... ah, delusional? Christian imagery even. Do you really believe this mind stuff of yours?
Or is it just wishful thinking. Well, I can relate to that.

Belief has nothing to do with it. I only deal with experience.

BTW, since when are "bardos" Christian imagery?

Elias

[Tony Ananda]

Christian imagery in the sense of saying, “You’re going to hell.”

[GW in Ohio]

Elias: You're a lot more insightful and articulate regarding Adi Da than I am. My only comment on ol' Frank is that he was a world-class asshole and I don't think he's reigning in heaven right now and having tea with Jesus Christ. I think he may well be getting his ass flayed in the bardo realm of the afterlife.

And what of the remnants of his kingdom? Which of his followers or offspring will try to take up the tattered flag of Daism and carry it forward, like St. Paul in the early Christian era?

My guess is that none of them have the drive, or the ambition, or the ego, to carry on in the Da tradition. (Nobody could be that big an asshole.) I'm expecting to see petty squabbles, feuds and in-fighting as a few individuals from the inner circle jockey for the power and the wealth that Frank accumulated during his lifetime.

The whole thing is playing out as a fascinating drama. Perhaps someone with the necessary insights, talent and time will document the whole thing in a book. It'd be fascinating reading, way more interesting than the turgid prose that Frank churned out during his lifetime.

[~E~]

Christian imagery in the sense of saying, “You’re going to hell.”

That's silly. Hell is pretty much a universal concept, not confined to the Christian churches.

In any case, I didn't say Adi Da went to hell. I said "He passed into some rather hellish bardos."

Using "hellish" as an adjective is not the same as preaching a Christian hell.

Also, let me state for the record I was totally surprised by this and the other visions that appeared after Frank's minisamadhi. I expected more of him, based on some of his demonstrations of yogic siddhis. I would have expected him, at least, to have entered straight into the "siddha realms" above the world, where his guru Muktananda went when he died.

Frank's problem, it seems to me, was not how he started out, but how he ended. He really did descend into megalomania and abuse. So I expect that by his own hand he voided the possibility of joining any kind of post-death community of wisdom.

It isn't as if there is some Cosmic Authority dishing out these fates either. Every one of us creates his own afterlife -- Frank Jones included. The afterlife is very much a continuation of our consciousness in this life, with all of its openings to and contractions against the possibilities of Consciousness or Buddha Nature. Like this world, it is, after all, a matter of the meditative mind, self-knowledge, and perception.

Finally, it is fascinating to me how you New Agers imagine your dabbling in Eastern religions gives you superiority over Christ. You have not a clue what that man was up to, imho. Men like Ramana and Ramakrishna knew what Christ was -- and weren't afraid to say so.

Elias

[etphon ehome]

Also, let me state for the record I was totally surprised by this and the other visions that appeared after Frank's minisamadhi. I expected more of him, based on some of his demonstrations of yogic siddhis. I would have expected him, at least, to have entered straight into the "siddha realms" above the world, where his guru Muktananda went when he died.

Frank's problem, it seems to me, was not how he started out, but how he ended. He really did descend into megalomania and abuse. So I expect that by his own hand he voided the possibility of joining any kind of post-death community of wisdom.

It is the integrity that we develop and live our lives with that determines our fate in the afterlife and in this life. Integrity is what we are on this planet to learn. Not one of us are on this planet because we are saint-like angels with no karma. Even those with great gifts are here to pay off karma. If we come in with superpowers gained in other lives and abuse them through lack of integrity, we lose what we gained and have to pay the karmic consequences of our decisions/actions. Integrity is the key to this life, not awareness, not experiences, not accompishments, not knowledge, etc. Those things can all be symptoms of integrity, but are not necessary. We are here to learn the value and purpose of integrity.

What is that gives one a peaceful heart on one's deathbed? The integrity that comes from knowing you did the right thing. Not superpowers or knowledge. Too bad for Frank. He really screwed up - BIG TIME! He went for power instead of integrity. He should have watched "Lord of the Rings."

The only positive way I can spin it for Frank is if he chose to play that role to seduce those without integrity into following him. A sting operation so to speak, to clean up some riff raff. To see who gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Because if one has integrity, they don't fall for that which lacks integrity. No matter how much convincing is directed at them. If a person is convinced to rob a bank, they are a criminal and the jail time is coming. We all know crime doesn't pay, in the end.

[RandomStu]

The only positive way I can spin it for Frank is if he chose to play that role to seduce those without integrity into following him.

To the extent that there are people in the world who want to be believers and followers, then gurus like Frank must exist, or we'd have to invent them.

Some people have the ability to consider things rationally, or make the choice to do so. That is, if they have an urge to be a follower, they can run "what-if" scenarios, and decide whether it's a correct choice, without actually learning from the experience of giving away control of their lives.

It seems clear that much of humanity is unable or unwilling to use this type of rationality. Rather, they must learn from experience. Surely, that's at least a partial explanation of why I followed a guru; doing so for a number of years gave me experiences so I could better understand what belief and following are about. Again: as long as there are people who want or need such an experience, there must be people like Frank to give it to them. Such people serve their purpose... whether or not they do so consciously and intentionally.

The karmic consequences of serving this purpose unconsciously and unintentionally may be unpleasant. But it's far beyond my pay grade (in my job as a "human being") to speculate on such things. My job is to take care of my own actions.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

[etphon ehome]

It seems clear that much of humanity is unable or unwilling to use this type of rationality. Rather, they must learn from experience. Surely, that's at least a partial explanation of why I followed a guru; doing so for a number of years gave me experiences so I could better understand what belief and following are about. Again: as long as there are people who want or need such an experience, there must be people like Frank to give it to them. Such people serve their purpose... whether or not they do so consciously and intentionally.

Yep. And me too with the guru following.

My job is to take care of my own actions.

And that is integrity.